There's a stigma associated with tapping out about wrestlers/characters looking weaker for having "given up," but you're beaten straight up either way. I sort of understand since I'd rather be pinned than tap out, but ultimately it's more how you're portrayed throughout the course of a match than how it ends in my view. I'd prefer to eventually tap out at the end of a stellar match with a handful of close near-falls than be pinned in five minutes, for instance. What's your perspective?

Doesnt matter to me, my characters tapped several times and was able to save face easily. Some peoples egos are too big for me to see them being okay with tapping, but its realistic to tap out if youre caught in a submission and in a real fight you pretty much have no choice.

If anything tapping is more honorable because youre still conscious, but made the decision to not have anything broken after being brought to a pain threshold. When you get pinned, you were literally incapacitated. Aka you were knocked the fuck out. But because submissions happen less often i guess the stigma is that theyre worse or sth.

Mr. DEDEDE wrote:

If anything tapping is more honorable because youre still conscious, but made the decision to not have anything broken after being brought to a pain threshold. When you get pinned, you were literally incapacitated. Aka you were knocked the fuck out. But because submissions happen less often i guess the stigma is that theyre worse or sth.

I think this is actually a really great point, really hits the nail on the head. I think the difference, however, has to do with humiliation, to an extent. If you're knocked the fuck out and pinned, you gave everything you could until you literally couldn't go anymore. Tapping is a conscious decision to give up, which might be seen as embarrassing or humiliating. It's the equivalent of a crying child saying, "No more! No more!" ...Except you're a grown adult in front of a capacity crowd.

That being said, I think whether or not it bothers me is very circumstantial. It depends on what kind of character we're talking about. I think characters in the vein of Bray Wyatt or pre-WrestleMania 31 Rusev should rarely or never submit. It's hard to come off as threatening when you've given up. They need to be incapacitated to be defeated. It's like killing the final boss in a video game.

I think it depends on the character and circumstances of the match and the psychology around it.

I'm generally indifferent about submission losses but I think in some ways they can actually be a character building moment for a character here are a couple of examples:

A rookie face gets caught up in the moment and is suddenly in his opponent's finisher. Panicking after being locked in, he/she taps out. It can be demonstrated as a "teaching moment" for said rookie and they find ways to improve their game.

A more pragmatic/cowardly heel has been injured and is locked in a hold. Maybe the person has a title match coming up and wants to make sure they're not severely hurt going in. Maybe they're just mentally weak when it comes to enduring pain. Either way I think it can be a positive expression of the character to do things this way.

I think submissions should be avoided with face champions and monster heel types, unless you're SERIOUSLY putting over the person who beats them as a legitimate star/headliner. Even then, should be done quite rarely.

In regards to Rhaegar, it HIGHLY makes him look weaker in comparison to getting pinned. It would be unfathomable for Rhaegar, a man that has called every "wrestler" in EAW fools and amateurs, to tap out by these people.

I think it depends on a lot of factors.

1.)  Is the wrestler who put on the submission known for their submission wrestling?

2.)  How often has the loser submitted in the past?

3.)  Was the tap out part of the story or used to progress another story in anyway?

And so on and so on.  It can make a wrestler look weak, but it can also make a lot of sense too.

No but I think it makes the salty crybabies who bitch about it look weaker because they don't realize it's just a game and think if the writers don't fulfil their wet dream fantasy of how badass they think their character is it's a hate crime.

TLA wrote:

No but I think it makes the salty crybabies who bitch about it look weaker because they don't realize it's just a game and think if the writers don't fulfil their wet dream fantasy of how badass they think their character is it's a hate crime.

Eh, I feel like this may not be the best way to look at it. While eFedding is just a hobby/game, it's a very time-consuming one. Writing promos, writing shows, making graphics, etc., especially on a website as well-designed and handled as this one, it takes a lot of free time out of people's lives. I think they're entitled to care about their character, how they're used, etc. You could make the same argument for real professional wrestlers who don't want to look weak - it's just an act/performance/show, after all, why does it matter? We can't just trivialize everything in the world, you know what I mean?

Well it's part of my gimmick. so if people don't tap out then I'm as useless as trying convince Haruna to change Pic base

Tapping out means your opponent broke your will and made you concede, it's completely different than getting pinned because YOU decide to give in and lose the match rather than being put down. It's weakness, it's the utter superiority of your rival. People can talk all they want about the issue, but there's a reason why Stone Colds, Undertakers, The Rocks and John Cenas, etc, rarely if ever tap out, at most they pass out. Now I don't go into whine mode when I tap, but I don't ignore the reality of the situation.

If it makes sense in the context of the story, Kenny Drake could get his pecker chopped off for all I care.

Uncharted wrote:

TLA wrote:

No but I think it makes the salty crybabies who bitch about it look weaker because they don't realize it's just a game and think if the writers don't fulfil their wet dream fantasy of how badass they think their character is it's a hate crime.

Eh, I feel like this may not be the best way to look at it. While eFedding is just a hobby/game, it's a very time-consuming one. Writing promos, writing shows, making graphics, etc., especially on a website as well-designed and handled as this one, it takes a lot of free time out of people's lives. I think they're entitled to care about their character, how they're used, etc. You could make the same argument for real professional wrestlers who don't want to look weak - it's just an act/performance/show, after all, why does it matter? We can't just trivialize everything in the world, you know what I mean?

Who the fuck are you to tell me how to look at shit? Sure they can care about whatever the hell they want but imo it's completely pathetic to let your ego get in the way of having a good time. It's not like anyone is forcing you to spend so much time here so if you are gonna cry cuz the writers didn't make you look like an invincible monster then you should get the fuck out right now cuz you have no chance of getting by here or in the real world. Just like how people who are intolerant of others opinions and feel the need to call them out to feel better cuz they think they know everything don't either.

Like others have said, it really depends on the character. My character is obviously built around submissions. Submissions are what I do. If I was to tap out, it would completely destroy my guy in the fact that he's a technical wrestler, but he would give props where it's due if someone was able to make me tap.

In a general sense, either way you lose. Tapping or getting pinned is still a loss no matter how you look at it and on the topic of it making you look weak, it doesn't always. Tapping obviously does because you're tapping out. You're physically giving up. Getting pinned means you weren't able to counter a finisher, or whatever the case, and your opponent is able to keep you down long enough to pin you.

As for which makes you weaker, I would probably have to say it's pretty even after the statement I just made. That's just in general. Depending on the character, mine for example, tapping would make me look weaker.

Uncharted wrote:

Mr. DEDEDE wrote:

If anything tapping is more honorable because youre still conscious, but made the decision to not have anything broken after being brought to a pain threshold. When you get pinned, you were literally incapacitated. Aka you were knocked the fuck out. But because submissions happen less often i guess the stigma is that theyre worse or sth.

I think this is actually a really great point, really hits the nail on the head. I think the difference, however, has to do with humiliation, to an extent. If you're knocked the fuck out and pinned, you gave everything you could until you literally couldn't go anymore. Tapping is a conscious decision to give up, which might be seen as embarrassing or humiliating. It's the equivalent of a crying child saying, "No more! No more!" ...Except you're a grown adult in front of a capacity crowd.

That being said, I think whether or not it bothers me is very circumstantial. It depends on what kind of character we're talking about. I think characters in the vein of Bray Wyatt or pre-WrestleMania 31 Rusev should rarely or never submit. It's hard to come off as threatening when you've given up. They need to be incapacitated to be defeated. It's like killing the final boss in a video game.

Idk about the "no more, no more" stuff. I think tapping is on the same level of ownage as being pinned personally. Tapping is just looked at differently by wrestling fans because wrestling fans hardly ever get into any real fights, nor do they understand the concept of one, which is why "company faces" don't often tap out.

To me a submission goes down to a mistake or error in strategy, allowing yourself to be caught by a hold and given an ultimatum of either 1. tap out, 2. find an escape, or 3. have a body part of yours significantly injured and not able to wrestle/work/fight for a period of time. Some submissions have no realistic escape, especially after a long grueling match. That's realistically how submissions are supposed to work. In pro wrestling submissions are prolonged for effect but the same logic should apply. Getting beaten so bad that you're not able to even sling your shoulder up to break a three count, however, is the ultimate ownage. People are just more accustomed to pinfalls because that's the most saturated match finish. 

Sidebar, I do think with major stars, submissions should be given more storyline context just because there's a lot of things you can do with it creatively, but I also don't see any issue in it being used freely. I've had myself tap out numerous times and it's never hurt my character (especially as a heel). Any heel who bitches after getting their character tapped out by a babyface should probably just stop e-fedding.

I don't have a problem tapping out. probably because in the kayfabe sense, the guy i'm working with is an expert at either submissions in general, or has a particular way of applying the hold.

Great question, Imp. Breaking this down a bit:

If you're caught in a situation where you might get pinned or tapped, you were either outclassed in the match or you screwed up in a late spot, so that's about the same. The method is about the same, too; in theory, you don't want your back taken in a wrestling or MMA match because a lot of submissions start from having your back taken. Pro wrestling starts from there and adds in the possibility of ridiculous-looking finishing moves. If a finisher doesn't require the back to be taken, it probably does require the winner to have the loser in a position that the loser would avoid if he was less tired or more careful, so the idea there's the same for pinfall or submission, too.

For my character, I think it's dead even. If one is worse than the other, I think it's only worse because of the way the match went, how long it lasted, how the loser was portrayed, etc (think Benoit submitting Orlando Jordan 3 times in 30 seconds each, or Brock suplexing Cena 78 times). The method of the finish is a pretty minor factor compared to that.

I'm also not convinced that the argument that a submission specialist looks especially awful if he taps is true. Anyone can have their back taken if they're too worn out or too careless. Sure, there's a little extra irony to somebody like Jason Cage tapping out, but if we're trying to look at this analytically and remove any stigma from the topic, I think we can ignore the extra irony from this case, too.

In any case, if you're any good, you'll be able to either spin the loss or recover from it. That's what promos are for.

kennydrake wrote:

If it makes sense in the context of the story, Kenny Drake could get his pecker chopped off for all I care.

This is my favourite answer so far.

As far as actually answering the question. It doesn't really bother me at all. I don't particularly think it makes one look weaker.

Nope.  Mostly because my character is weak.

If I were playing a more conventional character, I don't think it would bug me either if it were to someone's specialized finisher submission or even sig, especially if they're a technician, which most people want to be these days.  I honestly never saw the strength in being pinned.  It's just as demeaning to be physically beaten down and overpowered by someone for 3 solid seconds.

The only time it would bug me is if the person didn't deserve the win, or if I tapped out to, like, a hammerlock, and even then, with Pizza Boy, that wouldn't be an entirely huge stretch for him to be that weak.

I wouldn't say tapping out makes my character look weak at this stage in the game, but it's a major rub to whoever could do it. For someone who's been one of, if not the, best submission wrestler in EAW history it has to take a lot to make my character tap out. To my knowledge the only people to do it are Jaywalker (could also be argued as the best submission wrestler), DC (made Jay, DDD, and I all tap out in 2014), and Dub (made me say I quit, pretty much the same).

Now after 9 years or so of proclaiming to be the submission specialist and rarely ever tapping out, if all of a sudden I started tapping out every week I'd look like an old ass weak piece of shit.

Tapping out to me is a total defeat of your opponent, where a clean pin is just a physical defeat. Submission losses are easy to throw back in that person's face.

Interesting topic but a loss is a loss. Whether its by submission, pinfall, TKO, count-out..whatever the case may be. If you know you put everything you had into your promo's and lost by pinfall or submission, it shouldn't matter. A loss is a loss.

ℜhaegar wrote:

In regards to Rhaegar, it HIGHLY makes him look weaker in comparison to getting pinned. It would be unfathomable for Rhaegar, a man that has called every "wrestler" in EAW fools and amateurs, to tap out by these people.

Rhaegar talks a lot of shit for being a glorified jobber

Tapping out is unacceptable for me. My character looks up to John Cena who once said "Never Give Up". Because of Mr. Cena's wise words, I refuse to accept any outcome where I give up because I will NEVER give up.

Followup for those who take offense to tapping: Which is worse? tapping out or passing out and why?

I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure I understand exactly how it makes someone look less weak.

Passing out is way better than tapping out, not that I take offense at tapping-just so there's no confusion about my earlier post, I've also made the decision to lose matches with tapping out myself-, I just know it's the biggest embarrassing way to lose, next to losing an I quit match. Nobody ever chants "you got pinned" or "you passed out", but they do chant "you tapped out".

To me it makes sense, there's a difference between besting someone and making that someone admit you've bested them to the point they'd give in. I don't really get why people act confused, this is some ancient time stuff passed down through the ages before probably professional wrestling. How many legendary times in tv shows and music have people said they'd rather die than give up/kneel/etc? Why do you think as children kids would fight other kids forcing the other to say "uncle" when the other doesn't want to? What's the point of the epic kids game of bloody knuckles where you hit each other's knuckles until the other person gives up?


Causing quitting or forcing someone to do something they don't want to do has always been a pride breaker style thing, and the truest conquest over your foe. Now I know many people overreact to losing via tap out, so perhaps people have created an opinion to counter that stigma to fight the whiners who don't know it's simply part of the game or don't understand how it can add to a storyline, but I don't think that's reason enough to ignore what tapping out signifies.

If I tap then I feel the writer should take me out to dinner first before fucking me over like that.