So tonight I was listening to Stone Cold's podcast with (one of my idols) Paul Heyman and Austin brought up a interesting subject.

When Jake the snake hit a DDT back in the day, people would be knocked out cold. That was his signature move. However, know a days DDT's are thrown everyone and nobody reacts to it. It's nothing, really, now a days. It's become sort of a evolution in a way. Do you agree that selling is just getting harder/easier by the years?

Because of Japan, MMA, and ironically enough ECW, I think the way things are sold in wrestling today are bass ackwards.  Case in point: right now, Davey Richards hits lariats, brainbusters, elaborate backbreakers, knee strikes, submissions, and powerbombs.  Does he win with any of this? No,  He wins with a kick to the head, and not the only kick in his arsenal I might add, nor is it the only one to the head.  He also sometimes wins with a grounded keylock, which works in MMA because it's a legitimate submission, but in wrestling, he might as well be locking in a top wrist lock, or a hammerlock.

And then there's the inverse of that in a guy like Brian Cage, whom not only impresses as a monster worker with inhuman strength,but also as a freakishly agile SOB.  He hits impressive power moves like a powerbomb to the knee, or an outside-in Superplex from the apron, or a pumphandle facebuster.  He also hits a pretty double jump moonsault and a hellacious flying elbow.  What does he use as a finisher more times than not these days?  A discus clothesline, and again, a clothesline should be a finish, no question, but Mr. Get My Shit In as the fans have dubbed him has so many other impressive in both agility and physique moves in his arsenal.

I think wrestling's in sort of a culture shock identity crisis where it's trying to find out exactly what it should be under these new hybrid styles coming from all corners of the globe.  Even in the WWE a finisher isn't a finisher anymore.  I've seen more people kick out to the AA last month than in most of Cena's career, and that was, for the most part, on television!  And I get why they did it, I get that they're getting people over by making them look strong, but not every show is Wrestlemania, regardless to how much you want me to care about the US title.

Maybe wrestling doesn't need finishers anymore.  I've felt that way since watching Christopher Daniels wrestle for the first time over a decade and a half ago in NWA-TNA.  Or maybe, like Daniels, people should have more than one ace-in-the-hole move to hit to win a match.  That way indie guys like Ricochet and Andrew Everett can quit killing themselves trying to one-up one another with breakneck flips, and instead make it special when they decide to pull out that old standby 630 splash, or double moonsault.  Maybe it'd be fine if Davey won with a freaking powerbomb now and again, or as Austin alluded to, maybe Cena can pull off a victory with that springboard stunner.  Maybe a chair shot or a table slam could put someone on the shelf for a week or two instead of whipping out thumbtacks, barbwire, and carcinogenic light tubes that are more dangerous to inhale than take to the head.

I kind of agree with Austin, and in a lot of ways I kind of don't.  Heyman's not wrong, the sport has evolved past dropkicks and irish whips being finishers, and the DDT's gone the way of the dodo along with them, and maybe it's a pity, and maybe it shouldn't be.  I guess my point is that yeah, guys like me and Austin that gripe about this sort of stuff might be construed as dinosaurs playing couch quarterback to a generation of wrestling we didn't necessarily grow up with and therefore act xenophobic towards in some ways...but would it kill a guy to win a match with a moonsault now and again? Or maybe have a simple move built up as a big deal delivered by a big deal that no one else should be allowed to do in fear of diminishing it?  I don't know, I'm rambling at this point,and it's because I am conflicted.  I love Chikara, I love PWG, I don't mind a good puro match now and again, but yeah...not everyone's a Road Warrior. Sometimes you've got to sell that DDT.

ThePizzaBoy wrote:

Because of Japan, MMA, and ironically enough ECW, I think the way things are sold in wrestling today are bass ackwards.  Case in point: right now, Davey Richards hits lariats, brainbusters, elaborate backbreakers, knee strikes, submissions, and powerbombs.  Does he win with any of this? No,  He wins with a kick to the head, and not the only kick in his arsenal I might add, nor is it the only one to the head.  He also sometimes wins with a grounded keylock, which works in MMA because it's a legitimate submission, but in wrestling, he might as well be locking in a top wrist lock, or a hammerlock.

And then there's the inverse of that in a guy like Brian Cage, whom not only impresses as a monster worker with inhuman strength,but also as a freakishly agile SOB.  He hits impressive power moves like a powerbomb to the knee, or an outside-in Superplex from the apron, or a pumphandle facebuster.  He also hits a pretty double jump moonsault and a hellacious flying elbow.  What does he use as a finisher more times than not these days?  A discus clothesline, and again, a clothesline should be a finish, no question, but Mr. Get My Shit In as the fans have dubbed him has so many other impressive in both agility and physique moves in his arsenal.

I think wrestling's in sort of a culture shock identity crisis where it's trying to find out exactly what it should be under these new hybrid styles coming from all corners of the globe.  Even in the WWE a finisher isn't a finisher anymore.  I've seen more people kick out to the AA last month than in most of Cena's career, and that was, for the most part, on television!  And I get why they did it, I get that they're getting people over by making them look strong, but not every show is Wrestlemania, regardless to how much you want me to care about the US title.

Maybe wrestling doesn't need finishers anymore.  I've felt that way since watching Christopher Daniels wrestle for the first time over a decade and a half ago in NWA-TNA.  Or maybe, like Daniels, people should have more than one ace-in-the-hole move to hit to win a match.  That way indie guys like Ricochet and Andrew Everett can quit killing themselves trying to one-up one another with breakneck flips, and instead make it special when they decide to pull out that old standby 630 splash, or double moonsault.  Maybe it'd be fine if Davey won with a freaking powerbomb now and again, or as Austin alluded to, maybe Cena can pull off a victory with that springboard stunner.  Maybe a chair shot or a table slam could put someone on the shelf for a week or two instead of whipping out thumbtacks, barbwire, and carcinogenic light tubes that are more dangerous to inhale than take to the head.

I kind of agree with Austin, and in a lot of ways I kind of don't.  Heyman's not wrong, the sport has evolved past dropkicks and irish whips being finishers, and the DDT's gone the way of the dodo along with them, and maybe it's a pity, and maybe it shouldn't be.  I guess my point is that yeah, guys like me and Austin that gripe about this sort of stuff might be construed as dinosaurs playing couch quarterback to a generation of wrestling we didn't necessarily grow up with and therefore act xenophobic towards in some ways...but would it kill a guy to win a match with a moonsault now and again? Or maybe have a simple move built up as a big deal delivered by a big deal that no one else should be allowed to do in fear of diminishing it?  I don't know, I'm rambling at this point,and it's because I am conflicted.  I love Chikara, I love PWG, I don't mind a good puro match now and again, but yeah...not everyone's a Road Warrior. Sometimes you've got to sell that DDT.

I think it's kinda weird that these guys do all sorts of flippy, insane moves and get a near fall but some of the guys in Japan use simple clotheslines (Like Okada) as their be-all, end all finish. I don't really put that much thought into it when I watch wrestling. If someone wants to use Acrobatic Clothesline #2 as a finisher that's cool...if they want to use Kicky, Flippy Powerbomb Brainbuster as a finish, go right ahead.

I do think some finishing moves such as the power bomb, DDT or even the moonsault have been kinda devalued over time. I personally have a bigger problem with people getting up and no-selling a finish AFTER a match. To me that's just as big and even more ridiculous than no-selling a finisher after you've just lost to it.

ThePizzaBoy wrote:

Because of Japan, MMA, and ironically enough ECW, I think the way things are sold in wrestling today are bass ackwards.  Case in point: right now, Davey Richards hits lariats, brainbusters, elaborate backbreakers, knee strikes, submissions, and powerbombs.  Does he win with any of this? No,  He wins with a kick to the head, and not the only kick in his arsenal I might add, nor is it the only one to the head.  He also sometimes wins with a grounded keylock, which works in MMA because it's a legitimate submission, but in wrestling, he might as well be locking in a top wrist lock, or a hammerlock.

And then there's the inverse of that in a guy like Brian Cage, whom not only impresses as a monster worker with inhuman strength,but also as a freakishly agile SOB.  He hits impressive power moves like a powerbomb to the knee, or an outside-in Superplex from the apron, or a pumphandle facebuster.  He also hits a pretty double jump moonsault and a hellacious flying elbow.  What does he use as a finisher more times than not these days?  A discus clothesline, and again, a clothesline should be a finish, no question, but Mr. Get My Shit In as the fans have dubbed him has so many other impressive in both agility and physique moves in his arsenal.

I think wrestling's in sort of a culture shock identity crisis where it's trying to find out exactly what it should be under these new hybrid styles coming from all corners of the globe.  Even in the WWE a finisher isn't a finisher anymore.  I've seen more people kick out to the AA last month than in most of Cena's career, and that was, for the most part, on television!  And I get why they did it, I get that they're getting people over by making them look strong, but not every show is Wrestlemania, regardless to how much you want me to care about the US title.

Maybe wrestling doesn't need finishers anymore.  I've felt that way since watching Christopher Daniels wrestle for the first time over a decade and a half ago in NWA-TNA.  Or maybe, like Daniels, people should have more than one ace-in-the-hole move to hit to win a match.  That way indie guys like Ricochet and Andrew Everett can quit killing themselves trying to one-up one another with breakneck flips, and instead make it special when they decide to pull out that old standby 630 splash, or double moonsault.  Maybe it'd be fine if Davey won with a freaking powerbomb now and again, or as Austin alluded to, maybe Cena can pull off a victory with that springboard stunner.  Maybe a chair shot or a table slam could put someone on the shelf for a week or two instead of whipping out thumbtacks, barbwire, and carcinogenic light tubes that are more dangerous to inhale than take to the head.

I kind of agree with Austin, and in a lot of ways I kind of don't.  Heyman's not wrong, the sport has evolved past dropkicks and irish whips being finishers, and the DDT's gone the way of the dodo along with them, and maybe it's a pity, and maybe it shouldn't be.  I guess my point is that yeah, guys like me and Austin that gripe about this sort of stuff might be construed as dinosaurs playing couch quarterback to a generation of wrestling we didn't necessarily grow up with and therefore act xenophobic towards in some ways...but would it kill a guy to win a match with a moonsault now and again? Or maybe have a simple move built up as a big deal delivered by a big deal that no one else should be allowed to do in fear of diminishing it?  I don't know, I'm rambling at this point,and it's because I am conflicted.  I love Chikara, I love PWG, I don't mind a good puro match now and again, but yeah...not everyone's a Road Warrior. Sometimes you've got to sell that DDT.

100 percent agreed with what you said. Except with one part, about false finishes. False finishes are used more than anything to make a match appear to be good. Case in point Rock vs Cena at WM 29, false finish fest. Awful fucking match and not because of botches or anything, but because all it had was -hit move- -kickout- -repeat-. Same for Taker vs HHH at WM 27, same for Cena vs Owens at Elimination Chamber. All it is is a blanket for people to pretend the match was good when its not. That's pretty much the WWE style behind a "5 star match" these days.

But yeah personally if I'd book a wrestling show I'd have more submissions, more moves beating more people and sell the idea of knockouts. You CAN get knocked out from a powerbomb, and it can beat you. You CAN tap out from an armbar. Its how it is in real life. If you get caught in an arm bar and have no escape in mind you tap or you snap, period. How that pertains to the strength or weakness of your character is beyond fucking me. 

The standard DDT as a finisher is played out but theres sooo many different moves that can be used as a finisher in wrestling now. There are options for a guy like Cage or Ricochet to put people away, and it should be taken advantage of. Same for Richards, he has a ton of moves he can use, fuck a kick to the head winning every one of his matches. Yes, a kick to the skull should be able to win him some matches here and there but if hes gonna have a go-to finishing move it should probably be something far more dynamic. He's not Dolph Ziggler, he HAS an arsenal. I always HATED the psychology of a tombstone piledriver or a brainbuster being a "Set up move", thats one disconnect I've always had with NJPW and some Indys. Stuff like a piledriver, running powerbomb, flip bottom, 450 and etc should be looked at more as death blows or near death blows, but people get right back up from them in some leagues. That always bothered me. But I also feel you have a right in pro wrestling to paint what you want as the "silencer" to be the "silencer". Its just no way does a tombstone piledriver hurt less than a fucking lariat. No fucking way. 

I guess Im rambling too but I would like to see the "finisher" fazed out except for more harsh, dramatic, impactful or legendary moves. For instance if Jake the Snake took a youth pill came back and beat people with the DDT, id be all for it because id assume just like i assume with every wrestler "oh yeah it is a DDT, but he throws DDT's the hardest" (obviously in kayfabe) Thats the assumption I make with guys who have finishers who other people use as sigs. But even then theres a line man. But to each their own?

Mr. DEDEDE wrote:

ThePizzaBoy wrote:

Because of Japan, MMA, and ironically enough ECW, I think the way things are sold in wrestling today are bass ackwards.  Case in point: right now, Davey Richards hits lariats, brainbusters, elaborate backbreakers, knee strikes, submissions, and powerbombs.  Does he win with any of this? No,  He wins with a kick to the head, and not the only kick in his arsenal I might add, nor is it the only one to the head.  He also sometimes wins with a grounded keylock, which works in MMA because it's a legitimate submission, but in wrestling, he might as well be locking in a top wrist lock, or a hammerlock.

And then there's the inverse of that in a guy like Brian Cage, whom not only impresses as a monster worker with inhuman strength,but also as a freakishly agile SOB.  He hits impressive power moves like a powerbomb to the knee, or an outside-in Superplex from the apron, or a pumphandle facebuster.  He also hits a pretty double jump moonsault and a hellacious flying elbow.  What does he use as a finisher more times than not these days?  A discus clothesline, and again, a clothesline should be a finish, no question, but Mr. Get My Shit In as the fans have dubbed him has so many other impressive in both agility and physique moves in his arsenal.

I think wrestling's in sort of a culture shock identity crisis where it's trying to find out exactly what it should be under these new hybrid styles coming from all corners of the globe.  Even in the WWE a finisher isn't a finisher anymore.  I've seen more people kick out to the AA last month than in most of Cena's career, and that was, for the most part, on television!  And I get why they did it, I get that they're getting people over by making them look strong, but not every show is Wrestlemania, regardless to how much you want me to care about the US title.

Maybe wrestling doesn't need finishers anymore.  I've felt that way since watching Christopher Daniels wrestle for the first time over a decade and a half ago in NWA-TNA.  Or maybe, like Daniels, people should have more than one ace-in-the-hole move to hit to win a match.  That way indie guys like Ricochet and Andrew Everett can quit killing themselves trying to one-up one another with breakneck flips, and instead make it special when they decide to pull out that old standby 630 splash, or double moonsault.  Maybe it'd be fine if Davey won with a freaking powerbomb now and again, or as Austin alluded to, maybe Cena can pull off a victory with that springboard stunner.  Maybe a chair shot or a table slam could put someone on the shelf for a week or two instead of whipping out thumbtacks, barbwire, and carcinogenic light tubes that are more dangerous to inhale than take to the head.

I kind of agree with Austin, and in a lot of ways I kind of don't.  Heyman's not wrong, the sport has evolved past dropkicks and irish whips being finishers, and the DDT's gone the way of the dodo along with them, and maybe it's a pity, and maybe it shouldn't be.  I guess my point is that yeah, guys like me and Austin that gripe about this sort of stuff might be construed as dinosaurs playing couch quarterback to a generation of wrestling we didn't necessarily grow up with and therefore act xenophobic towards in some ways...but would it kill a guy to win a match with a moonsault now and again? Or maybe have a simple move built up as a big deal delivered by a big deal that no one else should be allowed to do in fear of diminishing it?  I don't know, I'm rambling at this point,and it's because I am conflicted.  I love Chikara, I love PWG, I don't mind a good puro match now and again, but yeah...not everyone's a Road Warrior. Sometimes you've got to sell that DDT.

100 percent agreed with what you said. Except with one part, about false finishes. False finishes are used more than anything to make a match appear to be good. Case in point Rock vs Cena at WM 29, false finish fest. Awful fucking match and not because of botches or anything, but because all it had was -hit move- -kickout- -repeat-. Same for Taker vs HHH at WM 27, same for Cena vs Owens at Elimination Chamber. All it is is a blanket for people to pretend the match was good when its not. That's pretty much the WWE style behind a "5 star match" these days.

But yeah personally if I'd book a wrestling show I'd have more submissions, more moves beating more people and sell the idea of knockouts. You CAN get knocked out from a powerbomb, and it can beat you. You CAN tap out from an armbar. Its how it is in real life. If you get caught in an arm bar and have no escape in mind you tap or you snap, period. How that pertains to the strength or weakness of your character is beyond fucking me. 

The standard DDT as a finisher is played out but theres sooo many different moves that can be used as a finisher in wrestling now. There are options for a guy like Cage or Ricochet to put people away, and it should be taken advantage of. Same for Richards, he has a ton of moves he can use, fuck a kick to the head winning every one of his matches. Yes, a kick to the skull should be able to win him some matches here and there but if hes gonna have a go-to finishing move it should probably be something far more dynamic. He's not Dolph Ziggler, he HAS an arsenal. I always HATED the psychology of a tombstone piledriver or a brainbuster being a "Set up move", thats one disconnect I've always had with NJPW and some Indys. Stuff like a piledriver, running powerbomb, flip bottom, 450 and etc should be looked at more as death blows or near death blows, but people get right back up from them in some leagues. That always bothered me. But I also feel you have a right in pro wrestling to paint what you want as the "silencer" to be the "silencer". Its just no way does a tombstone piledriver hurt less than a fucking lariat. No fucking way. 

I guess Im rambling too but I would like to see the "finisher" fazed out except for more harsh, dramatic, impactful or legendary moves. For instance if Jake the Snake took a youth pill came back and beat people with the DDT, id be all for it because id assume just like i assume with every wrestler "oh yeah it is a DDT, but he throws DDT's the hardest" (obviously in kayfabe) Thats the assumption I make with guys who have finishers who other people use as sigs. But even then theres a line man. But to each their own?

I guess I agree about the finisher/false finish spam. Im only okay with it on rare occasions.

One quick note about the tombstone/lariat combo that Okada uses (which I thought you were referring to) there's a long tradition of the Lariat being a respected finisher in Japan. Choshu, Tenryu, Kojima, others. It's not about logic I think, though I think you could handwave even that by saying the Tombstone does the damage that leads to the finishing move being effectively, in this case the lariat. I personally think using the spear as a set-up move was kinda lame before Goldberg did the jackhammer. If you're running at someone fullspeed and hitting them in the ribs, I think that will hurt just as much as the jackhammer, if not more.

And again, I think part of that is america's fault too.  We sent over Brody, Vader, The British Bulldogs, and LOD, and along with Choshu's influence, I think it made an impact on their society a bit when it comes to taking a piledriver and getting the fuck back up, or throwing a stiff ass lariat because Hansen did it because he was near-sighted and was afraid he'd miss.  The problem is that most of the guys in Japan doing this aren't pushing 7 feet or muscle or mass-bound monsters like the aforementioned gaijin.  And again, it's cool, just keep it over there.  When it comes to the states and, I hate to keep throwing Davey under the bus, but when Richards starts treating tombstones like an armdrag, it pisses me off.

Again, I know it's kind of wrestle-xenophobic, but what works for one culture's wrestling doesn't work for another's because we don't have that tradition and legacy instilled in us that the Japanese fans do to know that it's OK because this guy set a precedent for it to be OK.  It just doesn't translate.  

I'd also like to note that every name I've mentioned I enjoy watching wrestle, and this (de)evolution isn't necessarily going to kill wrestling for me, but I do reserve my right to sit on my front porch and shake my fist at those damn kids doin' cartwheels on my lawn!

ThePizzaBoy wrote:

And again, I think part of that is america's fault too.  We sent over Brody, Vader, The British Bulldogs, and LOD, and along with Choshu's influence, I think it made an impact on their society a bit when it comes to taking a piledriver and getting the fuck back up, or throwing a stiff ass lariat because Hansen did it because he was near-sighted and was afraid he'd miss.  The problem is that most of the guys in Japan doing this aren't pushing 7 feet or muscle or mass-bound monsters like the aforementioned gaijin.  And again, it's cool, just keep it over there.  When it comes to the states and, I hate to keep throwing Davey under the bus, but when Richards starts treating tombstones like an armdrag, it pisses me off.

Again, I know it's kind of wrestle-xenophobic, but what works for one culture's wrestling doesn't work for another's because we don't have that tradition and legacy instilled in us that the Japanese fans do to know that it's OK because this guy set a precedent for it to be OK.  It just doesn't translate.  

I'd also like to note that every name I've mentioned I enjoy watching wrestle, and this (de)evolution isn't necessarily going to kill wrestling for me, but I do reserve my right to sit on my front porch and shake my fist at those damn kids doin' cartwheels on my lawn!

Absolutely right. I was just explaining it more to the guy who was turned off a bit by Okada's set up in NJPW. I'm not really that big on Davey Richards or this "American Puroresu" movement. I'm a huge fan of Japanese wrestling, but I don't like it permeating too much into American Wrestling and Vice Versa.

I was explaining the rationale behind why it's acceptable in Japan, not necessarily why it should be an acceptable move/situation in North America.